BITE BY BITE | Honest Conversations About Eating Disorder Recovery

Navigating Eating Disorder Recovery and Sobriety with Rachel Frost

• Kaitlyn Moresi • Season 1 • Episode 20

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Welcome back to the Bite by Bite Podcast.

It is not uncommon for someone who struggles with an eating disorder to also struggle with addictions and/or other mental health struggles too.

In this episode, I’m joined by Rachel Frost, who bravely shares her lived experience of navigating both eating disorder recovery and sobriety. She opens up about the challenges of trying to heal one without addressing the other, the turning points that helped her move toward lasting recovery, and the support systems that made a difference along the way.

Episode topics:

  • The intersection of eating disorders and substance abuse (10:09)
  • The challenges of dual recovery for Rachel (13:23)
  • Rachel shares what pushed her to choose recovery (19:11)
  • Rachel and Kait discuss misconceptions of both eating disorders and sobriety (32:36)
  • The role shame played for Rachel in her recovery journey (36:47)
  • Rachel discusses recovery in relation to motherhood (44:32)
  • Rachel provides encouragement for moms struggling with eating disorder recovery and/or sobriety (48:49)

Content Warning: This episode contains brief mentions of eating disorder behaviors that Rachel has previously engaged in. Please listen in a way that feels safe for you and your recovery. 

Episode guest: Rachel Frost is an eating disorder recovery coach and psychiatric nurse practitioner. After overcoming a 20-year battle with anorexia and bulimia, she made it her mission to help women break free from dieting, find peace with food, and reclaim their lives. As a mom of two boys, Rachel knows firsthand how important it is to be present, authentic, and free from the constant fight with food and body image. When she's not coaching, you can usually find her outdoors or spending time with her family. In Rachel's work, she keeps things as real as possible — no perfection, no filters, just honest support and the belief that full recovery is possible for ANYONE.

RESOURCES FROM EPISODE:

EATING DISORDERS ANONYMOUS

8 KEYS TO RECOVERY FROM AN EATING DISORDER 

Befriending Your Body: A Self-Compassionate Approach to Freeing Yourself from Disordered Eating


RELATED EPISODES:

My 10-Year Battle with Anorexia and My Journey to Eating Disorder Recovery

Amy Goeckel Talks About Her Battle with Bulimia and Her Road to Eating Disorder Recovery

A Necessary Conversation about Eating Disorders in Males with Eric Pothen

Unpacking Drunkorexia, College Sports, and the Pressure to Perform with Cassie Lincoln

Battling an Eating Disorder and The Healthcare System with Courtney Stoltzfus-Zvara

Finding Purpose in Eating Disorder Recovery with Alex Sublette

Connect with Kait

@bitebybiterecovery

bitebybiterecovery@gmail.com 

Connect with Rachel 

@rachelfrost_coaching

Support the show

SPEAKER_00:

And one more thing. This podcast is explicit. Because if I'm gonna do something, there's no way in hell I'm gonna leave my personality out of it. So let's dive in. During this episode, Rachel talks about previous eating disorder behaviors that she used to engage in. Please be mindful and only listen to this episode if and when it feels right for you. Hi, Rachel. Thank you so much for coming on for Bite by Bite to talk with me today. I appreciate you giving me your time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so for the listeners, can you just share a little bit about your story? What led you where you are today? I know you are a recovery coach to help others, but you are also someone who is recovered from an eating disorder. So can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. So I started to struggle with food and body around middle school. I think I grew up in the early 90s and there was a lot of diet culture in my household. So there was lots of talk about diet, and it felt like every Sunday was like a cheat day, and then my parents would get back on track. So I feel like at a really young age, I was aware of my body size and the the food that I ate and whatnot. Um, but it wasn't until I was in middle school that I went to a new school and ended up um experiencing some traumatic experience. I was bullied um pretty significantly. And I think kind of my seventh grade year, I really started to kind of turn to and away from food. So like I found myself not eating during the school day just because I didn't feel well and I was anxious. Um, it's kind of where it started. And then I would end up like overeating in the evenings, and that is really, I would say by like eighth grade, I had a full-blown eating disorder and really struggled with my self-image and with just being normal around food and body image and kind of all of it. So that's kind of where my eating disorder started. I really didn't struggle with substances until I was in my early, well, like late teens, early 20s, so after high school is when that kind of became more of a struggle for me. And then those kind of intertwined and obviously challenged me to find full recovery from both of them.

SPEAKER_00:

So you say that in eighth grade, looking back, you can say that you had a full bone eating disorder then. How long was it until you sought treatment? Um, was it before substance use, after both? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So uh it was when I was my junior going into a senior year in high school, and my parents obviously knew what was going on, and they found eating disorder specialists in the area. There was really only one lady that um was like a professional in the place that I live, and I don't live in like a super small town, and so I was kind of forced to start seeing her. And at that point, I really wasn't like committed or willing. I think I was just doing it because I was in sports and I was kind of told I wasn't gonna be able to play basketball if I didn't do this. Um, and so at that point, that was the first like formal treatment I had, and it was really just me meeting with a therapist and then a dietitian that was somewhat specialized in eating disorders um in in my town, but there was no like eating disorder treatment center. And I did that until until I turned 18, and then I essentially stopped doing it. Um, and I would say that there was a little bit of improvement, but really I was like it wasn't my choice. I was kind of being forced. And so I think it helps a little bit, but I still struggled throughout high school. And then what, like I said, once I turned 18, which was a couple days after I graduated high school, I stopped going and then didn't get formal treatment again until I turned 20. So a couple years later.

SPEAKER_00:

And what was your eating disorder? Did you binge? Were you restricting? Was it both?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So when it first started, like I said, in eighth grade, it was kind of like that not eating because I felt anxious. And then I would, I remember like sneaking food at night, or my parents would find like wrappers in my bedroom that I like ate overnight. And then probably around high school, I started struggling with purging, so it was purging, it was locs, it was restricting, kind of the binge restrict purge cycle. And then I would say from like 20 on, it was more so anorexia until I found full recovery. And like I started, I kind of went all in, I say, when I was 27, 28, around that age. Um, so it was kind of everything, honestly. There wasn't like one symptom that I struggled with more than the other. Um, it was kind of all over the place. And I think I think a lot of people have that experience. And I some eating disorders I feel like can be like glamorized. And I guess my personal experience, having struggled with kind of every symptom that you could think of is that it's all the same, it's all pretty miserable. So yeah, yeah, it's all miserable for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So when you look back, how do you see the difference in the presentation for the eating disorder and then the substance abuse? Like, do you think one caused the other? Or you were you backbatted with the other and then one led to a different outlet? Like, how did that kind of play out?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I definitely don't think one caused the other. I think I think it was just like my genetics. Like it was the perfect storm of I came from a family who struggled with addiction and alcoholism as well as eating disorders. Like we have both of those things in my family, like aunts, uncles, my dad is a recovering alcoholic. Um, but I think that they definitely like made each other worse. Um, and so for me personally, struggling, I struggled with alcohol from about the time I was like 19 until I got sober when I was 25. So it's been 11 years now. And I think the biggest thing for me was that although I needed to work on both of them to find recovery, recovery from an eating disorder actually was a lot harder. Um, and I'm not minimizing recovery from addiction, but if you think about it, like how do we recover from drugs or alcohol? We abstain from nothing. And that's, you know, not something that you can do with eating disorders. Like that's actually part of the problem. So um I did take me when I like accepted that I had a problem with drinking, it took me probably nine months of like relapse, kind of go back. I did some eating eatings and um kind of get back on track with things until I finally like it stuck and I stayed sober. And that was not my experience with my eating disorder. Not to say that it was easy, it was just really different.

SPEAKER_00:

So it's interesting that you say that eating disorder recovery was harder for you because and again, not to minimize any other disorder recovery from anything else, but I have I've seen quotes here and there just throughout my years that with most, if not all, types of recovery, the goal is to stay away from it. Whereas if you're recovering from an eating disorder, you have to face like the thing is the food with an eating disorder. Whether you're restricting, binging, it doesn't matter. The thing is the food. And we can't we need to face that every day because we need to eat to survive. So it's really interesting that to me, as someone who's experiencing eating disorder, I can see I know what you mean when you say it was harder. Cause you have to face it. Not only do you have to face it every day, but you have to face it multiple times a day.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. And another like crazy thing is that a lot of people, like when I found a community of sober people, there's a lot of like cross addiction. So even people who don't like fall into that eating disorder category, like they get sober and then they turn into food or they turn into sweet. So like there's there's a lot of like diet culture within the sober community as well, which I found to be a challenge. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Um do you think in a way that may have hindered your recovery with an eating disorder in any way?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I mean, I think like you hear people talk about an eating disorder recovery, like the whack-a-mole of symptoms. So, like you stop purging, but then maybe you increase lax abuse or exercise or whatever it might be. I feel like that was also super relevant in my life. Like, I so I kind of like fell into the cycle where I would go to treatment for my eating disorder. Um, from like the ages of 20 to 27, I was probably in treatment, I mean, a lot a lot, I would say close to 10 times. And I feel like I would always be on in the like SUD track, so the substance use disorder track. And it never really clicked to me that I had a problem. And I think um I feel like I would get into the cycle of getting a better place with my eating disorder, get out of treatment for my eating disorder, go back to my normal life. And like I was in my early 20s, so like all my friends were, you know, drinking and partying, and I would kind of convince myself that I'm feeling better mentally because my eating disorder is in a good place. So then I would think I could drink normally. I would try to drink normally, and I'd relapse and have all this guilt and shame and uh really, I mean, mostly those two emotions. Um, and then I would kind of use that to use my eating disorder to cope with those emotions, and then I would be back in a relapse of my eating disorder. So it's kind of like the cycle of recover, relapse, recover, relapse, not realizing that like the substance use was playing into it.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you say substance use track, you were in eating disorder treatment, and that was like part of the treatment.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yep. So when I was in treatment, there was always uh a like different group or different track for people who struggled with substances. Yep. Um, and I just I think the only time that I wasn't in that track was the first time I went to treatment when I was 19. And then after that, I was always in that track. So there's just like different groups that talked about co-occurring disorders because they're so much more common than people think. Like I think to 50% of people with an eating disorder at some point have substance use struggles. Um, and I think it's higher in bulimia and then anorexia and then binge eating is the lowest, but I mean it's still a pretty high percentage. So yeah, we were I was always in like a different track. And you know, some of like once I was an outpatient or day programming, they would have us go to like AA meetings as well as like our eating disorder programming and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00:

So interesting. So how do you you just kind of answer this question in a way where you said that it was like that vicious cycle, you would get better with your eating disorder, but then you would go back to quote unquote normal life. And for you at just at that age, friends were partying, friends were out drinking, even to which is social. So it was hard for you to get back into that world given what you were dealing with. So, how was there any other ways aside from that vicious cycle you described where you're you can see a connection between the eating disorder and the substance use or the drinking?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think just the underlying like need to escape. So I think my eating disorder stemmed from this idea that there was something inherently wrong with me. And then also I was like a perfectionist. Um, but I think when the bullying started in middle school, um, I mean, I was targeted for I don't really know why. And I think I internalized that as like there's inherently something wrong with me and I must be deserving. So I think alcohol and food were a way to like escape myself, be someone different, maybe. Like, you know, when I drank alcohol, I felt like I could maybe act normal in social situations, that the eating disorder would at times make it more challenging to do so because I was more anxious or more stressed about food. So I think they definitely both acted in a way that was obviously maladaptive, but helped me in the moment. Like I feel like I truly believe we all do the best we can in any given moment with the tools that we have. And I feel like that was like my early funny is like this is maladaptive, but it was how I was like surviving, I guess.

SPEAKER_00:

It was a tool. They were the tools that you had. Yeah, at that time. So when you noticed that both needed that when you both excuse me, when you realized that you needed treatment for both, was there a point was the eating disorder track with the substance use track the only treatment you got? Or was there a point where you had to be like, okay, maybe I need to kind of deal with these separately?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I think so they I think I did deal with them separately. And what I think was the most challenging piece for me was the accepting of the substance use. Like I feel like it was really easy for me to accept the eating disorder because it had been with me since I was so young and it was kind of part of my identity. Like everyone knew, my friends knew, my family knew. Whereas like I felt a lot more stigma with like saying I'm an alcoholic or I struggle with substances. And it was also like this, it was like another thing that was wrong with me. Like, I remember just being so frustrated the first time that I like realized that this truly was a problem, which happened while I was in treatment. Um, and I really just had like a my counselor in eating disorder treatment was uh like LADC, so a licensed alcohol and drug counselor. And we had a family session, and she just like straight up told me, like, you have a problem with drinking. And I think that was the first time that it really clicked. And my parents were in the session. Um, you know, they were the ones that saw the worst of my drinking. Um, and so I feel like it was always like the focus was always on the eating disorder for the most part, because I feel like from a like a big picture lens, like that seemed to be the thing that was keeping me from living a normal life. And um I feel like the drinking got more progressive um as time went on, but the eating disorder had always been in the forefront. And so I think um I think I spent a lot of time on that. And then once I had that family session, I realized that I had to also like I had to take the alcohol and drinking seriously because I was never gonna, I was just gonna keep in that cycle. And so I did kind of dedicate some time. That was the year that I got sober. Um, I was 25 to kind of prioritizing um sobriety. So I was, you know, going to multiple meetings a week. I got a sponsor. And the first year of sobriety, actually, like I was kind of intermission with my eating disorder. Things were really good. I was really stable. Um, and then I had unfortunately like right around a year sober, I had a trauma trigger. So uh somebody from my past like showed up and at like one of my women's meetings, like at a safe meeting, and that kind of triggered me, and I ended up relapsing with my eating disorder. But I was able to stay sober. Um, so I think that was a time where I really did prioritize sobriety, but I was always working on both. Like I was always seeing a dietitian and a therapist and um either doing IOP or outpatient or my eating disorder as well. But there was a time where I had to focus on like getting and maintaining sobriety.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're um sober to this day, so congrats on that. That's huge.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. So when you talked about in the beginning when you started to go to treat to treatment in high school, that you were it wasn't really your decision. You were just told that if you don't go, you can't play sports. So ultimately you were like, okay, well, I want to play sports, so I'll do this. How long would you say that it wasn't your choice? Like what was a turning point when you were finally like, okay, yes, I need to recover, I need to work on this, not for any other reason, but just because you simply knew you need to and you wanted to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think I had a few, like what I would call rock bottoms to my eating disorder. And I would say that like the last one where I decided to go all in and like truly did it for myself was when I was like 27. So I was in nursing school. Um, I was towards the end of nursing school, and I had like just been really struggling with my eating disorder. Um, I was an outpatient. Um, you know, my team really wanted me to do a high level of care. And I was just very willful. And I was like, nope, I'm not gonna do this. Um, you know, I need to finish nursing school. And I just remember I was two days away from my pinning ceremony from a nursing school. Um, and I was having medical like checkups in the city, so that's like two hours aware away from where I live on a weekly basis, just because I was really struggling with my eating disorder. And at that medical update, I was essentially like put on a medical hold. And I know it sounds like, well, how was this your choice? Um, but I did have a choice that day. I had a choice to um enter treatment the next day or essentially get put on a hold. And both of those choices were me missing my nursing pinning ceremony that I had worked like so hard. Like two years of nursing school, it was the most challenging thing I ever did. I was probably the most unhealthy that I've ever been. Um, and I think that was my turning point. Um, and I think part of that was just like the vulnerability and the seriousness of like the medical comp complications that I was having for my eating disorder and having to be like two hours away from home, calling my mom, letting her know that I was being sent to the hospital and that I would have to go to treatment the next day. Um, just like really um couldn't deny anymore. Like I had just been in this denial space of like, I have this under control, this isn't that bad. Um, you kind of just, I mean, and I talk with my clients a lot about this belief of like you think nothing bad is ever gonna happen to you and that you're kind of invincible with your eating disorder. And I feel like that moment, like I just saw in the emergency room by myself, like I just saw everything that my eating disorder had taken from me throughout my life. Um, you know, memories with families, I had missed events, I had missed family reunions, and now I was gonna be missing my nursing pinning ceremony that like I had family traveling to town to be at because I had to go to treatment. And I think that was kind of the day that I decided that I was not gonna continue to miss out on my life because of my eating disorder, that it wasn't worth it. Um, and that, you know, sitting in that emergency room, I still didn't feel sick enough for my eating disorder. And that was just like a really eye-opening moment for me.

SPEAKER_00:

So when you say not sick enough, for people who may not have that experience or know what that means, what does that mean? Because it's very common for people with eating disorders to always say, it's not that bad, I'm not sick enough, I'm fine, all of that. Yeah. So what does it mean? And your experience, like what does it mean?

SPEAKER_01:

So I think, you know, the idea of I'm not sick enough is this idea that society tells us that there's a certain look to an eating disorder, that there's a certain um like hierarchy of your eating disorder only matters if you've been hospitalized, if you've been underweight, if you've been tube fed, if you've been, you know, had something bad happen to you. Otherwise, you know, if people can't see your struggle on the outside, then your eating disorder struggle is not valid. And I think that is so harmful and so untrue. And I think like most people don't realize that 90% of people with eating disorders aren't underweight. And I think that that is just like mind-blowing to people. And as somebody who struggled with anorexia, with bulimia, with binge eating, I was just as miserable, like at my lowest weight as I was at my highest weight, like struggling with an eating disorder. It was miserable regardless of what weight I was at.

SPEAKER_00:

So that I'm not sick enough is very it's not only is it common, but I feel like it's very easily reinforced too by society, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So you had mentioned that you kind of had a had a family history of people ha also having eating disorders, like aunts and uncles and things, and then your father struggled with a little bit of the alcohol as well. So did you find it easy to kind of open up to them about what was going on? Because I know with eating disorders, that's all secrecy, that's all lying, that's all manipulation, that's all of those kinds of things. Do you think did you still engage in a secrecy and all of that? Or do you think that because some people in your life can could relate, it was in a way easier to open up?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that I still engaged in the secrecy for some time. However, when I was like ready to rely on those people and open up, I feel like it was a lot easier and I had to explain less. So, like I said, my dad was sober, so he at least understood that struggle. Um, and then I had I have an aunt on my dad's side. So my dad's sister, who both struggled with anorexia and alcoholism, and she is sober and um in recovery. So she was somebody who I often would get together with. We get coffee, we talk about sobriety and the struggles and how like the eating disorder is different. And she is still somebody today that is like super close to me, almost like a second mom who I know just like really gets it. Um, so I think that that did help. But I also think it didn't stop me. Like when I was in my eating disorder, I still was protecting it and you know, secrecy, manipulation, all of that was happening. But once I was able to be open and willing to be open, I feel like those people were like super special people in my corner because they at least understood at a different level that outside people wouldn't understand.

SPEAKER_00:

So it sounds like your family, when you were ready anyway, your family was a big support system and a great resource to just open up to. So were there any kinds of support or resources that were the most helpful for you for either types of recovery? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I think um, like I said, I did do AA for a while. I don't really do AA anymore, but I still feel like the principles of like the 12 steps and this idea of like powerlessness is still really helpful. Um, I also did Eating Disorders Anonymous. So I ran an Eating Disorders Anonymous. Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that. Did you do that together? So I um yes, I did. Yep. Mm-hmm. So and then I actually had an Eating Disorders Anonymous group at my church for a while. It was just really hard to like get the numbers of people to show up, even though there was a need. And then um COVID happened. And so then, like, pretty much all eating disorders anonymous went to online. And so I feel like that was also a super helpful tool for me because it took those principles without the idea of abstinence. Um, so pre-eating disorders anonymous, like the recommendation was always for people who kind of struggled with a cross addiction and wanted something similar to the 12 steps was overeaters anonymous. And that's just like really not helpful. Um, because if you know anything about overeaters anonymous, like the whole idea is abstinence. Um and I think I went to one of those meetings and I was like, this is just like, you know, encouraging an eating disorder was really, really unhealthy, unhealthy for me at least. Um, so I think those two resources were the most helpful. And then I think just being in like the substance use disorder track in treatment enough times, like made me also helped me kind of come to the realization that I did have a problem with drinking.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, and so just so for k listeners who might not know, so I feel like everyone knows what alcohol anonymous is, AA. So and the eating disorder world, for lack of better explanation, is also eating what is it even called eating disorder anonymous?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, eating disorders anonymous, EDA.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so that's the official title. So it's the same thing with the 12 steps, the same principle, it's like the only difference is there's no abstinence. Like you have to, again, face the food. And I actually I didn't informally do EDA, but I remember back when I was years ago when I was at Rock Bottom, I was like looking for anything and everything. So I did at one point have that book, and I there was there's like a lot of good stuff in there. I just it didn't work for me. I don't think that I was for you to really do anything with anything that I had, but I was actually gonna ask you if you did do EDA too since it's very similar.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I actually still recommend it to my clients um just because there's so many resources and like you can literally like technology now, you can literally jump on a meeting pretty much any time of any day. Um, so it's just like that like acts that like support. And I do think any kind of like anonymous meeting, it does have like a different vibe. And so I feel like it might not be for everybody, but it also I I think I recommend all my clients try it. If they are looking for like that extra support and that like relatability, I feel like it can be really helpful for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Now obviously with eating disorders in general, there's a lot of societal misconceptions and misunderstandings. But in your experience, what mis what misconceptions did you find very frustrating about recovery when there was overlapping struggles between the eating disorder and the alcohol?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I feel like I kind of already touched on this, but definitely the like that they're similar, like the just just don't overeat or just eat or just stop exercising. Um, like I feel like that wasn't easy for me, and that wasn't as like straightforward as it was to just don't go to the bar or don't go to the liquor store. Um, I feel like that was a really challenging one for me. Another one misconception that I feel like came up a lot was, and I I heard this a lot in treatment, I feel like, was this belief that like if you struggle with both alcohol and eating disorders, like you're just gonna have to learn to manage one of them, or that like, you know, you're not gonna find full recovery of both. And I feel like that kept me stuck for a long time. Um, just this idea like yeah, yeah. I've heard people like in the SUD group, not by like leaders, but obviously like other clients, yeah, that are just like, you know, whether it be, you know, at times substance use can be the one that is like challenging somebody's health or um, you know, safety more than the eating disorder. So just this idea that I have to get sober and then I'm just gonna learn to manage like lesser of the evil, if you think of it that way, it depending on where the eating disorder and substance use is at, um, I think that this belief that full recovery, if you struggle with more than one thing, is just non-existent. And I think that's not true at all because I have found recovery from both. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Did you and and by no means is ever is recovery ever easier, but did you find in a sense that recovery uh maybe even at the very end or at some point was a little easier just because you could take resources from eating disorder treatment and apply them to the substance and vice versa?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that that helped me as far as like the, so I would say like the mindset of like, you know, one day at a time, one moment at a time. Like something that I learned in AA was like taking it one day, one moment at a time. Um, like this concept of just for now, I'm going to, you know, say no to drinking or whatever it may be. Kind of the same thing with the eating disorder, like one meal, one bite at a time, and you like the name of your podcast. Um, that was like one of my big mottos in treatment was one day, one meal, one bite at a time. Um, and I feel like that was such a mindset shift that helped me in my eating disorder recovery and vice versa. I feel like once I was able to get sober, the tools that I used to get there and like working the 12 steps were able to be applied to my eating disorder and kind of help me get momentum that way. Um, so I think definitely. Um, yeah, I mean, I it's hard to say if it made it easier, but I think it gave me more tools. Yeah. Like in my cool box.

SPEAKER_00:

Easier was definitely the wrong word, but I guess mindset would be like you didn't have to like switch. Okay, now we're in the eating disorder recovery mode, or alcohol abstinence mode. It was just one day at a time across the board. Yeah. And then for sure. Yeah. So self compassion is like non existent for some. With an eating disorder, um, as you know. So did you find that that was exacerbated because you had essentially had to focus on recovering from not just an eating disorder but from two separate things? Or do you did you find that it went the other way where it was almost there was more self-compassion?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I feel like it was probably more challenging. And I think there was, I mean, both the eating disorder and like the drinking, they both held so much shame in like different ways that I feel like it was a lot harder to find self-compassion. Um, like there was just like, I feel like the drinking just fueled my, and I think that was kind of one of my like rock bottoms for the drinking was realizing that fuel or drinking fueled my like self-hatred and it didn't like take the pain that I was trying to like get rid of away. And I feel like yeah, I feel like it was a lot harder to be self-compassionate until I found recovery from both and was able to like look back and realize that I was using alcohol and food to cope in a maladaptive way because of like unhealed, essentially unhealed trauma um and um negative core beliefs.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and the negative core beliefs is that's tough because that's something that you've been exposed to for so long when you were growing it from a kid to a teenager and beyond that. And then you have society all around you where it probably reinforces all the poor beliefs that we've had. And we don't even know their disorder, right? Because it happens everywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and if it when it's like, you know, when the eating disorder voice or beliefs have been a part of you from such a young age, it is really hard to like separate and be like, whoa, that is actually not my true self.

SPEAKER_00:

Um a couple months ago, someone had asked me a question, and I want to ask you, just because I'm curious to what your look on it was, they asked me basically what the role of shame was with my eating disorder. And I like my response was the shame didn't really come into play until I knew what I was even dealing with because for a long time I didn't know I had eating disorder. I just thought, oh, this is pretty shady, but this just must be life. I don't know. And the shame didn't come in for me until I started realizing I was engaging in all these behaviors. So then I would try not to engage in the behaviors. I would, and then I would be shameful, and then it just was a hamster wheel. So do you think that you were shameful first and then you went to the eating disorder? Do you like how did the shame play a role for you?

SPEAKER_01:

If the shame was present before the eating disorder, I don't think I knew. I think that the shame came after the eating disorder. Um and once the behavior started. And I think I agree that like shame, one of the I think shame is one of the hardest emotions in eating disorder recovery because it also feels secrecy. And I think that this is like something that like comes up a lot when I work with clients of like, you know, I don't, I don't ever want you to feel shame over like an eating sort of behavior because then you're, you know, you're not gonna share that in that like like you said, it keeps you doing like that hamster wheel. Um, but I definitely think that the shame came hamster. Um, I mean, I think that there was probably some, I think there was some blame. Like in middle school, like I said, that was kind of the bullying, the traumatic bullying was definitely the starting point for me of like the perfect storm of like already having like poor body image thoughts and growing up in a family that dieted and then having something happen to me. I think I internalized and blamed myself, but I don't know if there was shame yet. I think the shame came after the eating disorder.

SPEAKER_00:

So you had a long journey from eighth grade until 27-ish, but formula treatment from high school. So there was a lot of relapse, remissions, recovery, and a lot of cycles in and out of treatment. And that can be frustrating. So, how did you keep the motivation to just try again and again and again? Because that is that's tough.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think there were times where I really didn't want to. Um, and I can say that from the time that I from actually from 20 to 27, I did not quit treatment at all. I mean, there were times where I want, I was like, I'm done. There's no point in doing this. But I I guess what kept me going was I had a treatment team that really believed in me and like held hope for me when I didn't hold hope for myself. And I think that that made a really big difference. Um, and then I just kept kind of holding on to one of my favorite mantras, which is like, you know, if I slipped, if I made a mistake, if I relapsed, it was always like, what is the next right thing that I can do? Um, you know, I skip breakfast, what's the next right thing I can do to get back on track? And I think just like that in the moment, like committing to recovery and like these tiny little choices was something that really worked for me. Um, and not to say that I didn't have bad days, because I definitely had bad days or bad weeks or bad months. Um, but I just knew that it was like, I mean, like recovery from an eating disorder and from other addictions as well. Like it is literally a times like life or death. Like I'm either choosing to live or I'm choosing to live with an eating disorder, which will eventually lead to, you know, death. Like, you know, eating disorders have the highest mortality rate of any mental illness, I think, other than schizophrenia. And like, so it's I think that kind of became like a reality to me of like it's one or the other, and you know, I'm choosing, choosing life, choosing to do the next right thing, get back on track. Um, and then I think I also reminded myself, like, I think for so long, I was so hard on myself about how long it took me to recovery, to recover. And then I like was in I was in treatment or at like a recovery night or speaker or something, and someone had mentioned that the average time it takes to recover from an eating disorder is seven years. Um, and that's average. So like there's people that take longer, shorter, obviously. Um, but I think that was also really validating for me. Um, this is not a quick process um for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it definitely depends too on how long you struggled. Like everyone had dealt with their eating disorder for different lengths of time. And obviously, the longer you engage in anything, a good habit or a bad habit or eating disorder, it's gonna take longer to change that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so recovery is very messy, it's nonlinear, it's not it's not just straight up to recovery, it's up and down all around a million times. So taking one step at a time, like you said, okay, I messed up for breakfast. What can I do now? Like breakfast doesn't matter, I can't change that. Yeah. Did you kind of quickly get to that mindset? Or was there a point in recovery where your perfectionism kind of was a part of recovery? For example, like just for me, my I my perfectionism was very present in my eating disorder. So once I committed to recovery, recovery in my mind had to be perfect in every way. So do you think that you your perfectionism had a role in recovery at some point?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, definitely. I'm very like all or nothing, black or white, um, definitely a perfectionist. And I think that it did play a part for a long time in this idea of like, if I don't do it perfectly, I'm not gonna do it at all. Um, and I think I think it took me a while. Like, I don't think this mindset shift was something that happened overnight. I think it was probably years in the making. Um, but I think I just realized how like how taking recovery and trying to make it perfect or do it perfectly, or you know, like I think about like I used to do food records and trying to like make sure I did everything like perfectly to please other people. I think I realized pretty quickly and probably had a dietitian and therapist that kind of called me out on it, that I was just using a trait of my eating disorder to, you know, try and control something. And I think that um I had to realize that I just had to show up messy, like do it messy, do it anyways. Um, and it's it's not possible to do recovery perfectly because recovery is messy.

SPEAKER_00:

So right, and it appears to purpose too, because life yeah, like once you are recovered, life isn't gonna be perfect, right? Absolutely, yeah. So as I said in the introduction, you are a mom now. You've been a mom for quite some time. So were you recovered prior to being a mom? Or was that were you still like where how did that timeline play out?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, so I uh got pregnant with our first son when I was 32, I think, and I was in a stable place. I would not say I was like recovered where I am today. Like, you know, so for today, today for me means I really don't have eating disorder thoughts. Um, I do have like bad body image thoughts, um, but I never really think about using eating disorder behaviors. Um, and I haven't used eating disorder behaviors in years. And I do think when I got pregnant with our first son, we actually had trouble conceiving. Um, so I think I probably was probably exercising more than I should have been. I don't think that I was like over-exercising, um, but I was still seeing a dietitian at that point. Um, I was weight stable, but I think that I probably wasn't where my body wanted to be. Um, and I say this because I got pregnant. I had a healthy pregnancy. I did great in recovery during pregnancy. Um, but then after I had our first child, I was at a higher weight for my body and stayed at that weight. Um, and ended up, we ended up getting naturally pregnant with our second. So I think that speaks to like recovery. I think I probably wasn't completely recovered when I got pregnant with my first son. Um, and I think I won't have known that until like giving birth and my body finding its new natural weight, which was higher than what I had in mind or what I was with our first son. So I was in a stable place. I was not like what I would consider recovered completely for me.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's you saying that, like looking back. Yeah, yeah. So having two kids now and being fully recovered, did you have a hard time kind of was there any point in time where it was hard to stay in the place you are now? Or do you think that that actually helped?

SPEAKER_01:

I think I think motherhood helped my recovery like immensely. Like just I was really worried about how I would do postpartum. And I actually did really amazing as far as like food and exercise and um weight went. I handled it just fine. Um, I didn't have a whole lot of stuff come up. Um, I had a lot of anxiety come up postpartum, especially with our second kid. Um, but yes, I definitely think like motherhood, it had always been something that I wanted and never believed for myself. I think I had doctors tell me that, like, you know, you may never have kids. Um, so I think that was just such a motivator for me. Um, and it still is today. Like I can imagine like being a mom and struggling with an eating disorder. Um, I just like I don't know how I would do it. Like something that I often tell my clients is like, you know, some of them are moms. And um, you know, a lot of times we tell ourselves that our eating disorder is gonna help us. Like, you know, I used to always tell myself it's gonna help me be a better student in school, or it's gonna help me like these lies that we tell us um tell ourselves. And I mean now what I tell my clients, and this is probably something that also came from sobriety is that like there's nothing that the eating disorder won't make worse. Like starving, purging, changing my body isn't gonna change anything. It's only gonna make me uh like more or less able to handle hard times.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and they and once you whatever you're chasing through the eating disorder, like whether it's thinness or perfection or control, once let's say you do get a taste of that thinness or perfection or control, nothing is solved. You just want more. So you just go and going and going, and there's no there's no thin sight, and you're and then on top of that, you're chasing something that doesn't even exist.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's never enough. And I feel like I literally just had this conversation this week of like, you know, just when I like a client saying, I just want to get to this number, or just when I am this size, and it's like, no, like that's never enough. Like it's always raised. Yeah, yeah, it's it's a constantly moving and it's a it's a mental, like it's a mental bar.

SPEAKER_00:

Like that's we are setting these unrealistic expectations for ourselves. Yeah. And we're just setting ourselves for failure. So I'm gonna switch up one of the questions I had for you simply because I can't answer it ever personally, just with my life. But if someone was listening right now who struggles with an eating disorder and substance abuse, and they are a mom or want to be a mom or soon to be mom, what would you want them? What would you say to them? What would you want them to know? Anything like that. Yeah, that's a great question. And I know this million things.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I know. It's like the first thing that comes to my mind is like that you are not alone. And I think that is definitely one that I want people to know because I feel like there can be more shame when you struggle with two things. And it's like, what do I do first or how do I cope with it? Um, but I think the message I always want people to have is that like true recovery is possible. Um, it doesn't matter what you've been through, it doesn't matter how long you've been struggling, it doesn't matter if, you know, the Eden Disorder always wants to make us the exception. So, you know, I've been told by doctors I'll never recover, or nobody has struggled like I have, or I've struggled for 20 years. Like it doesn't matter what your story is, like recovery is for anybody who is like willing to do whatever it takes to get it. Um, not saying it's gonna be easy, not saying that it's like it's gonna happen overnight. But if you struggle with an eating disorder and alcoholism and you're a mom or you want to be a mom, like I can tell you 10 years ago from today, like I'm 36 now, when I was 26, I never thought I didn't have a partner. I was steep in my eating disorder. I was in no state to have a child. And honestly, most of my friends did at that time, and I just probably thought it wasn't gonna happen to me or happen for me. Um, so I think just as a reminder that like you are not the exception, you can recover, you can have the life that you want to live. It's not too late, it's not you're not too far gone, anything like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Was that I love that because I read a book in the past year or so. Um it was that you can just sort of recovery book, and the author would say, like give a strategy, and this is what this is how it will help you. But then she would like put in little sarcastic like footnotes, like stop your stop putting yourself on a pedestal, you are not unicorn, this does apply to you, you can recover because a lot of you know a lot of eating disorder thinking is oh yeah, I do believe in recovery, just not for me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, like I'm unique.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like we put ourselves in these pedestal, not even on a good pedestal, just like a pedestal that like all of these strategies or recovery or all of that, yeah. I believe in it, yeah, I see it, but not not me, not for me. Yeah, but yes, for you, for everyone listening, for everyone who's struggling, it's possible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Um so as a recovery coach, you have you work with clients and you mentioned that you recommend the EDA, the Eagles Anonymous. What are your other like favorite resources?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so eight keys to recovery by Carolyn Coffin. Yeah. I mean that. I use that in my coaching. I use assignments from that all the time. Um, that is one of my favorites. Um, another book that I like is Befriending Your Body. Um, I think I have it right here. I don't know who it's by. Um, and Safi Biassetti. So it's a good one about like a self-compassionate approach to freeing yourself from disordered eating. Um, it uses like a lot of yoga um and different mindfulness practices. Um, so those are the two books that I typically use the most. Um, I also use no period now what if I'm working with like, so that's about hypothalamic amenrhea. So if I'm working with like athletes, um, but those three books I use. Um, and then I actually I have created some like weekly content for my clients that are that's just about like diet culture, food freedom. Um and each week as we work together, we work on something different. Um, but those are like my favorite resources for my clients, I would say.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean, I would even say that is a resource because you have a lot of like diet culture. What's the word I'm looking for? Like breaking the stigma of diet culture. You have a lot of good just real resources there. So I will link that so people can find that too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you. That actually started as like my Instagram started as like my recovery blog. So I like to journal. So like when I kind of went all in when I was 27, 28, that was kind of where I shared my journey of essentially. Um and then it's kind of evolved into using it for my coaching business. Yeah, that's where I'm at. Well, not coaching business, but using it as yeah, a journal, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think people love that. I feel like just knowing that you're like putting it out there and being vulnerable, knowing that you're not a lone and that somebody else is thinking and feeling the same way you are, it can be so powerful.

SPEAKER_00:

It is very powerful, but it also was just having this conversation the other day with someone, it's very powerful and it's very being and it's very positive in a lot of ways, but it's also heartbreaking in a lot of ways. Like there should not be this big of a community online who can relate to these kinds of accounts. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it just breaks it, just speaks to how common it is and how many people even silently struggle with this. And yes, it's sad that it's that relatable.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, that is very true.

SPEAKER_00:

But that's why we're there. That's why we're here to help. Um, but thank you again for talking and sharing your story and tracing all you back to eighth grade. Yeah, yeah, thank you for allowing me to. Of course. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Bite Bye Bite. I'm so grateful to be able to share this space with you, and I hope today's conversation brought you some insight, comfort, or maybe even a sense of community. Remember, no matter what you're healing from, healing isn't perfect, and every step you take does matter. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with someone who might need it, leaving a review, or subscribing on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you want to connect more, you can find me on Instagram at Bite ByBite Recovery. I'd love to hear your thoughts, your stories, or just to say hi. Until next time, let's keep taking life bite by bite. See ya.

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Kaitlyn Moresi

Host
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Rachel Frost

Guest