Unpacking Drunkorexia, College Sports, and the Pressure to Perform with Cassie Lincoln

Welcome back to the Bite by Bite Podcast.

College years are often described as “some of the best years of your life.” While that is true in many ways there are often hidden battles students may face that are independent of academics.

In this episode of Bite by Bite, Kait and episode guest Cassie Lincoln, dive into the hidden realities of drunkorexia and body image pressure in college culture. Together, Kait and Cassie unpack the silent struggles many students—especially athletes—face when navigating food, appearance, and identity on campus. 

From extreme social norms like skipping meals to “earn” drinks, to body shaming in athletics, we share personal stories that reveal how disordered eating patterns can become normalized within college culture.

Episode Topics:

• Cassie talks about her experience with college culture (4:45)
• The impact of the pressure in college culture (7:34)
• Cassie discusses the aesthetic and  pressure of college athletics (9:54)
• Cassie discloses disordered messages delivered by her college XC coach (12:20)
• The unenjoyable nature of competition in college (14:42)
• Understanding Drunkorexia (18:55)
• Reflections on disordered behaviors from Kait and Cassie (29:40)
• How to recognize disordered patterns (34:54)
• The advice Kait and Cassie would give to their younger selves (37:16)
• Let’s break societal expectations (40:14)

Content Warning: This episode contains brief mentions of eating disorder behaviors. Please listen in a way that feels safe for you and your recovery. 

Episode Guest:  Cassie Lincoln is a wife, a mom of two boys, and an Occupational Therapist who resides in Texas with her beautiful family. Cassie and Kait have been friends since the middle school years and have both their own experiences with disordered eating. Aside from being a close friend, Cassie has a special place in Kait’s heart as Cassie was the first friend to know about her struggle with an eating disorder over ten years ago. As Cassie’s life has evolved she has also noticed how pressures and judgements from society have evolved as well. Presently, Cassie strives to live her life to the fullest by breaking societal norms by living her life the way she wants to, as opposed to what society suggests and expects.

RELATED EPISODES:

THE SECRET THAT ATE ME ALIVE: My 10-Year Eating Disorder Recovery Timeline 

WHERE I'M REALLY AT: The Messy Reality of Eating Disorder Recovery

UNEXPECTED LESSONS: Lessons My Eating Disorder Taught Me About Healing & Self-Worth

Connect with Kait:

@bitebybiterecovery

bitebybiterecovery@gmail.com 

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Chapters

• 4:45 Cassie talks about her experience with college culture
• 7:34 The impact of the pressure in college culture
• 9:54 Cassie discusses the aesthetic and pressure of college athletics
• 12:20 Cassie discloses disordered messages delivered by her college XC coach
• 14:42 The unenjoyable nature of competition in college
• 18:55 Understanding Drunkorexia
• 29:40 Reflections on disordered behaviors from Kait and Cassie
• 34:54 How to recognize disordered patterns
• 37:16 The advice Kait and Cassie would give to their younger selves
• 40:14 Let’s break societal expectations

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:05

Hey there, and welcome to Fight by Bite, the podcast that teaches step by step through the messy, beautiful, and real journey of my struggle with a beam disorder. And I recovered. I'm Katie, and I'm here to share my own experiences, lessons in the wisdom I've gathered along the way. Here, I share it all the raw, the real, and the unfunded. For those of you who know they're not allowed to. And for those of you who have a file, but I thought before we dive in, please remember that while I pull the story about helpful. This podcast is not a substantial. If you're struggling or need extra support, please reach out to a flopfundalhelder.com. And one more thing. This podcast is explicit. Because if I'm gonna do something, there's no way in hell I'm gonna leave my personality outfit. So let's dive in. Hey everyone, welcome back. Today's episode will hit especially close to home for so many people who have stepped foot on a college campus. I'm joined by my good friend Cassie as we dig into the unspoken pressures of college life, where body image, food, and alcohol often collide. We're talking about junkorexia, the very real but rarely acknowledged practice of skipping meals to make room for drinking. We're talking about the body shaming that gets baked into athletics, and we're talking about the subtle but powerful ways campus cultures teaches us to shrink ourselves to fit in. Cassie and I will share our own stories, and later in the episode, she will even briefly open up about how these same pressures show up in mom culture too. If you have ever felt like your worth depended on your appearance or like fitting in came at a cost of your health, this episode is for you. Just a quick content warning here. So please only listen to this episode if you are in a good place and you know that it feels right for you. Hey, hi, Cassie. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It means a lot that you're giving me your time and your thoughts. So thank you. And yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be here. Um, so I've known you since you were kids. So it's we have a pretty solid friendship. Um, and I don't some of the things that like you're gonna talk about today, I wasn't aware that you experienced just as I'm sure you weren't aware of much of what I experienced um right away, at least. So it'll be interesting to have this conversation, but I think it'll be good. Yeah, I think it will.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Definitely will be enlightening for both of us.

SPEAKER_01: 2:53

Yeah, for sure. So when we had our chat a couple weeks ago, most of what you talked about was your experience in in college for the most part. Um so can you just talk about the experience of entering college and feeling like I think you said you're like you felt like your appearance was like a social currency. So what was that like?

SPEAKER_00: 3:14

Yeah, definitely like entering college. It's an entirely new world. You're trying to almost create a new identity. Um, you're getting measured in different ways than before. Many people, you know, feel like appearance is quickly that first place we go to kind of have a social currency. Um, and then, you know, suddenly the campus becomes a stage, the dorm hallways, the dining room, parties, football games, even just walking to class, it feels like you're being watched and judged and ranked. And then I was thinking, you know, what else kind of triggered that is our age, our generation had a big burst of social media. So um, all of a sudden you started to think about Instagram and how a night out isn't just about going out, it's also posting pictures to prove that you went out. Um, and you know, you're thinking about those pictures and the post that's gonna be shown the next day and how I'm gonna look in it. Um, and these are just all fuel to the fire. Um, and it, you know, kind of just continues to build on things and suddenly you're so deep in it that you don't even realize, you know, you're thinking about all these things all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 4:26

They just become normal, like thinking about those things just yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:29

It's just like part of your everyday life.

SPEAKER_01: 4:33

Um so when you say, so college is a new world, you're making new friends, you're meeting a shit ton of people. Um, did you experience at any point like seeing other people's habits and like kind of adapting them in relation to all of this?

SPEAKER_00: 4:52

Yeah. So college, you put hundreds of females together in, you know, one space, a dormitory, and suddenly, you know, females start noticing things. You see someone skipping dinner because they already ate a granola bar, a roommate making a show of going to the gym twice a day, um, girls in the dorm room mirrors tugging at their clothes, signing about how, you know, they feel huge. Um, and it all doesn't seem abnormal. It seems just like part of the culture. Like you should be a part of it. You should immerse yourself in it. So suddenly, you know, you start seeing that's a way to kind of join in and start bonding and nod along with all the things that are going on. Um, and then, you know, soon enough you find yourself absorbing it. Meals feel less about hunger, more about comparison. You're sitting at the table together. I took pizza today, she's eating a salad. Like, what am I doing? Um, you know, and then suddenly you won't think about ways to avoid it. Um, and then we'll talk about this later, I think. Um, you're thinking too later that night, and how if I, you know, save some meals now or save some calories now, uh, drinking alcohol isn't gonna be so bad later. And those thoughts start to to jump into your brain too. Um so it just becomes a very disordered, competitive comparison type of environment with all these females, you know, in one spot.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

Did you only start to kind of feel like this when you got to college, or do you think it was kind of already there, but maybe in college it felt a little more pressure just because all of those people were new?

SPEAKER_00: 6:35

Yeah, you know, you're right. It probably we've always been sitting at tables um for our whole lives, you know, thinking back to elementary school. I don't know that I would have been comparing then, but I probably was like subconsciously comparing to what the other children were eating or what the other um kids were doing. And then I think it probably gets exacerbated in a social setting, like we talked about before, that social currency of college and and trying to fit in. And and now you're spending like 24 hours a day, seven days a week with these people. So habits are going to transfer over.

SPEAKER_01: 7:13

Right. Just that's part of it is that natural you spend your time around people, you just you both start to kind of pick up things from each other. Yep. So you were an athlete in high school, you were an athlete in college. So was there, I'm sure, I'm not even gonna ask if there was an added layer of pressure because I'm sure there was, but was there kind of like a difference in pressure and performance versus how you looked or the aesthetics and athletics?

SPEAKER_00: 7:42

Or yeah, I think um for me, in my brain, the way I came up with the thoughts was um if I did the extra workout, if I did the extra miles, because I ran cross-country pretty, you know, pretty competitively in college, um, I would be better than my teammates and I would be, it would be less hard to do. And so um those disordered thoughts, I don't think were so much about aesthetics uh in my competitive sports. Um, it was more about um the competitive part of winning, winning the event. So um I definitely feel like I put that pressure on myself because I was like, if I cut the calories now, if I run the extra time now, if I put in the work now when I go to race day, it's gonna be easier. And I kept reinforcing that, reinforcing that.

SPEAKER_01: 8:43

And was it? Was it easier on race day?

SPEAKER_00: 8:46

No, because I remember distinctly running next to a like a heavy set girl and thinking in my head, how is she beating me? Like she is running faster than me, she is doing better than me. And like, again, that's a disordered thought, but like looking next to the girl and being like, she is she looks overweight to me, but she's doing better than me. Um so I don't think it was always true.

SPEAKER_01: 9:13

Yeah, yeah. Um, do you think in college that your coach added any sort of pressure or pressure on other teammates that maybe you just ended up absorbing? Or do you think that environment was pretty healthy in the sense of making sure you're feeling yourself, like doing the training the right way, things like that?

SPEAKER_00: 9:40

Oh no, there were so many times where I look back and could absolutely cringe. So, okay, one of the things I remember that really sticks out to me is our cross-country coach called in a nutritionist and um to speak to the team. And one of the biggest takeaways I got from that conversation we all had, that presentation we had that day, was that the nutritionist told us that cheese was the devil, that cheese would make you put on extra weight. It would make you it they didn't say the word fat, but that's what my brain took away from it. And so I used to enjoy an omelet every day almost in college, and I loved to put my cheese on it. But as soon as I saw the nutritionist, that became like a thing that got cut out. Like, nope, cheese is the devil. And so maybe to the average person that wouldn't be taken away out of that conversation, but with somebody who was already kind of evaluating things and looking into things, um, that's like a major takeaway I had. Um, and then my coach, um, one time we were all doing abdominal work and um she was saying something to us about our aesthetics that people were starting to look, I think she said pudgy. Um like people on the team? People on the team were starting to look pudgy. And I was a was the captain of my team at that point. I went to her office afterwards and I really spoke my mind because that made me sick to my stomach. Um yeah, I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01: 11:27

What was her how did she respond to that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:30

You know, she uh was the type of person that didn't take um responsibility. So I think she almost like looked at me like I had come up with it myself and that she wouldn't, you know, say something like that. Um, but multiple teammates heard it, they were concerned about it, and um yeah, it was just something that stuck with me and it needed to be addressed.

SPEAKER_01: 11:57

Yeah, I know of course, um yeah, that makes me that makes me mad. But do you did you find after that comment that there was can you like sense that girls took it uh uh like as they should in a bad way?

SPEAKER_00: 12:13

I think so. I think the team dynamics, not only, you know, for the um competitive part of winning a race, we're also, you know, geared a little bit towards the aesthetic part. So I'm sure that even and I don't want to just say the girls, because it was a mixed team of male and female. And I ran with some men that were definitely disordered and their eating and thoughts, you could just tell. So I think probably every what everybody walked away from that with some level of thinking, oh, do I look putchy?

SPEAKER_01: 12:48

Yeah, yeah. Um, so it's just it's heartbreaking to hear that the coach would make comments and then to hear that like a professional nutritionist was pulled in and made just like disorder essentially disordered comments, like about the cheese or and about other things, I'm sure. But did does the XC team, athletics in college, anyway, how does that whole entire culture feed into and your experience, like your disordered thoughts? And like obviously I'm sure they increased and stuff, and you took them with you, like you said, but in the like looking back in the moment, did it make the sport unenjoyable now?

SPEAKER_00: 13:29

Oh my gosh, so unenjoyable. Like running to me before I ever entered competitive running in college was like a relaxation, a way to go clear my mind. And then when you put like a time on something, uh, you know, a value on it, and you have to meet these times and it just becomes a pressure and a layer of you know, thinking about it, you know, overthinking about it, um, that it doesn't become enjoyable anymore. And then with like the disordered thinking towards food, it's like, oh, if I don't have breakfast or have a really light breakfast, I'll be lighter when I run, which will be easier for the race. And those thoughts, you know, just stack. And then as soon as it's just the breakfast before the race, then it becomes the dinner the night before, then it becomes the lunch, then it becomes a week before, and suddenly you're just like again, too deep to get out. Snowballs.

SPEAKER_01: 14:31

Yep. Um, so in the beginning of the episode, you mentioned compensating eating for calories for alcohol. So that was something that I can relate to as well. But um what we're really talking about is drunkorexia, which isn't technically a medical diagnosis, but it is kind of like I call it kind of like a behavior, like another symptom of the eating disorder that you are already struggling with. So essentially, someone who quote unquote has drunkorexia, like we the person like will limit their food because they know they're going to be drinking alcohol later and there's more calories, there's calories in alcohol. So it's kind of like a way to save room for that. So, what did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00: 15:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I would say, and it was again like a social cultural thing. Like the girls would get together and on Saturday mornings we'd go to like Dunkin' Donuts and get a coffee, and that would count as like our meal because we were like, we're drinking later. Um, so we're just gonna have a nice coffee, and that's gonna be kind of like our meal for the day. And then, you know, start drinking in college at whatever time on a Saturday, maybe noon. Um, and then suddenly it's like, you know, this it just gets carried away where you don't even start thinking about food. So that's kind of, you know, the disordered thinking and and around the girls getting together. It was a fun social event, but really we were putting like ourselves last by by doing that. And then um, I was always the girl who like one of my restrictions was not drinking beer. I didn't really drank for that.

SPEAKER_01: 16:22

You would never drink beer.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

I would never drink beer. I was the girl who drank like literally tequila straight out of a bottle. Or Diet Coke. Yeah, a Diet Coke or a soda water, and people thought I was nuts. Um, but in my mind, it was like tequila was the healthiest drink that I could have. Um and that's what we're gonna do. Tequila's awful. You know, now I enjoy in in my adult life, I enjoy a nice margarita on the you know, on the rock. But straight tequila, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01: 16:57

I mean, I always knew that if I was a night out with you, I'd have to be ready for it. Tequila. But yeah, and then also like I just think back to those days when I too would like restrict food to regulator and it never ended well. It just makes the hangover worse. You were drunk much quicker. It's just all and then you end up eating, in my experience, like I would end up like binging, what I call binging, um, at like 2-3 in the morning because you just want to sober up and you're so yes and so hungry, and then you're eating like all of this anything to get your hands on. Anything.

SPEAKER_00: 17:40

Yep. And I remember like vividly that my friends would like order a pizza and I would be like, no. And I would have like tortilla chips or um chips and salsa, chips and salsa, or like frozen vegetables, which sounds ridiculous, but I would still not allow myself to to do that. But there would be like some level of satisfaction of watching other people do that, and I know that's part of the disordered behaviors, but um, because you're kind of like, oh, I'm doing good because I'm restricting myself from that.

SPEAKER_02: 18:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:23

But they're they're engaging in it. Um, but yeah, absolutely. Like, and and then you would just get drunk so much faster, which is this terrible concept.

SPEAKER_01: 18:34

Yeah, it's but it's very but unfortunately it's very common. I mean, we're talking about it in the in like the college setting. Uh-huh. Just because I feel like the party, it's part of the party culture, but unfortunately this is also true for people who aren't even in college.

SPEAKER_00: 18:51

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01: 18:52

Um so what what do you think? I mean, besides like the obvious, like getting drunk quicker, having the hangovers, the whole disordered part of it, what is the what's the danger of this that isn't that obvious in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

Of drunkorexia, you mean?

SPEAKER_01: 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

Yeah, I think like the danger is really getting too drunk too fast, obviously. Like you don't have nutrition in your body to absorb anything to function. Um, I think it probably would lead to disordered drinking later in life, maybe, if you're putting like alcohol above food. Um and and then just like I don't it's just not good for anything. Your liver, any any physical part of your body either. Definitely probably took some years off of our lives.

SPEAKER_01: 19:53

Yeah, oh yeah. Um, it's funny that not funny, but it's I'm interested in what you just said about um alcohol issues later in life, because when I think about, and that's probab that could be very true, but when I think about the drunkorexia in my experience, like the alcohol really had nothing to do with it. It was just more of I want to be social, I want to have all of my friends, so how can I prioritize the eating disorder without kind of skipping out on my social life? That's what it means. Yes. Like I didn't really want to drink, but I mean, yeah, I didn't really want to drink, but I still wanted to be my friends, I still wanted to participate. So in my mind, like something had to give. And eating disorder, the food is what has to give.

SPEAKER_00: 20:42

Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, yeah, my adult life, I don't drink much. It was more of like a social concept again. Yeah. Um, and yeah, you're absolutely right that when you go out, you feel like the only answer is to drink because again, you're trying to fit in, you're trying to have an identity, you're trying to um go with a crowd. And I think, you know, it is hard to say no, because some people are like, Why aren't you drinking?

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:13

So yeah, you're right. You cut the food out because cutting the drinking out, you would have people knocking on your door saying, What are you doing, Kate? Come on out with us. Why aren't you drinking?

SPEAKER_01: 21:24

Because in our society, cutting out food is more normal and more acceptable, and no one's gonna question that.

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

Yeah, exactly. Yep. Sad. Sad truth. It's really um, yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 21:37

Yep. I uh I remember this memory just like popped into my head when we first started recording. I remember when I came to college to visit you for a night, and we went out, had fun. The next morning we woke up, we went to that diner that was near your college. And I remember we got breakfast, and I remember that you and I were so we made a comment, we were so proud of ourselves. Like we scraped our plates. And I remember, like, we ate our whole meal, and I remember one of your friends had texted you and said, Where are you? Did you already go to the gym or something? But then you were like excited to like respond and say nope. And like you sent a picture of your empty plate. And I think that that scenario just highlights to how people around us pick up on our patterns and start to get to know our patterns. Like your friend thought you were in your room, you were out running, or you were at the gym or whatever. Yeah. Remember that memory like so vividly. And I that's weird to have random memories like that, and that also speaks to you like you see something or someone says something or you learn something, and it just sticks, like it just sticks with you, and you have no real you really have no control over. Yeah. Brain keeps Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 22:58

Yeah, and like you just said that, and that sparked a memory to me. I well, we both worked at a coffee shop together in high school. Okay. And customers would come in and ask if I ran yet today. Because they would see me out on the street. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that to me was so frustrating and so maddening that I was like, what are they like my keeper? Like, are they tracking my mileage? Like, what's going on here? But you're right, like you just suddenly get this identity or people have this expectation about you. And they may not think they're doing anything wrong by like asking you those questions, but um it is it is frustrating.

SPEAKER_01: 23:45

Yeah, and then I mean, I don't know if this is the case for you, but I just know that if someone were to do that to me, it would make me feel guilty. Like if I hadn't ran yet. Yeah. Yeah, like now I have to. Yeah. Now I have to. Or I should have earlier.

SPEAKER_00: 23:57

Yeah, like, oh yeah, you're right. I didn't do that thing that I should have done. Right. Yeah. It's wild. Um it's very wild. Very so and you know, I like in the moment, I would have never admitted these things. Like when I'm when I was in it. It's looking back and when you're, you know, an adult. I have two children, a husband, you know, my life is so different. And I look back and I am like, wow, that was really disordered. And I remember like coming home from college breaks, and my sisters would be like, gosh, Caz, you look really skinny or you look really thin. Are you okay? Like, my friends are even asking about you. And and I would just push it off and be like, I'm fine. I just have to run like 15 miles a day for cross country or whatever. But looking back on some of the behaviors and things that I did engage in and the time I was didn't think it was anything wrong. I thought it was normal. I thought I was being a part of a group and doing the things that all of the girls were doing or all my teammates were doing. Um, but it was, yeah, totally disordered.

SPEAKER_01: 25:13

It's really hard to like identify it as disordered when it's just so automatic.

SPEAKER_00: 25:19

Mm-hmm. Um Yeah, and I don't think I would maybe ever be like classified as having a dis you know eating disorder. Cause I think mine was driven by environment, really. Once I was out of the environment, the those things didn't I mean they come up from time to time, but they don't didn't stick with me. Right. Yeah.

unknown: 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:45

Kind of like once you're removed from it, it can make it easier in a lot of ways. Yeah, like there's no like feeling like you're being watched or your appearance is being looked at, or you're competing with people, or you have to go to a spring ball and you have to look a certain way, or your Instagram photos, all those layers that I I spoke about. It in my adult life, it doesn't feel like all that pressure is there. Um, but again, like I had two children, so I guess I do sometimes backpedal and think like a wow, people must look at me and think she looks a lot different than college, you know? But then I'm like, but I'm loving my life and I'm enjoying my life. That if they think I look different than I did in college, awesome. I am a different person.

SPEAKER_01: 26:38

Right. I feel I feel like the problem is if you don't look different. Yeah. Like, yeah, and you didn't know how old are we in college? Like 18 to 21, like in between there. Like if we're in our 30s, like we should not look the same.

SPEAKER_00: 26:52

Right, right. Yeah. No, I I think I saw a post on Instagram and it was like, I'm really not proud of you, you know, 20-year-old fitness influencers when I'm 40 and looking at your pictures because they're both looking the same back then. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:09

Um, I remember I'm like having a lot of flashbacks right now, but I remember when um I went to treatment in 2016 and we were out of, we had group we had both graduated college by then. Um and I remember we you I think you were still, you were still, you were living in Connecticut at the time, I think, because you were getting your doctorate. And but I was home, and I remember you and I were so very close friends, but we never talked about any of this. Like I just I wasn't aware that it was happening for me. You weren't in college anymore, and I wasn't even aware that it had happened to you before. But I remember you write, you wrote I still have it somewhere. You sent me a card and you like wrote in it and kind of like told me like a lot of what we just talked about and how you can relate and things like that. And I obviously, when you wrote that card, like you knew, like looking back, you knew that this is all going on. But like, how did you really fully realize that? I guess is my question.

SPEAKER_00: 28:11

Yeah. So eating disorders go deep in my family. Like my sister went to treatment, struggled really hard with an eating disorder. So I've always been somebody who's very keen on picking up behaviors of somebody with disordered eating. Um, and I remember you and I went out. We were driving then. So we had to have been, you know, old enough to drive. And you were like, Do you want to stop at Dunkin' Donuts and get a coffee? And I was like, Yeah. So you brought you were driving, you brought me through the drive-thru. And by the time we got to the drive-thru, you had decided against a coffee. And in my head, I was like, Oh, okay. I'm like, yep, it's all adding up. Her appearance is different. She's making these suggestions around eating, but she's not engaging in it. So, like, I I knew your behaviors were disordered. And I was always trained from my experience with my sister that somebody who is an active eating disorder, um, you don't really want to bring attention to it because that could be fueled as like, oh, she notices this is good, it's working. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't want to bring that attention to it for you because I didn't want to fuel your fire or push you any further or you know, give you any more um like reason to keep doing, engaging in it. But I knew and I and I still wanted to be a friend to you, and I still wanted to reach out and say, like, I see you, I like I understand, um, and like I'm here when. You're ready, but not like while you're actively engaging in it, because I I knew what the outcome of that would be.

SPEAKER_01: 30:07

Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow. And I too you just said like the best thing to do is not like bring attention to it. And that I was never aware of that, but like looking back when people wouldn't make comments to me, like that would it's like motivation in a way.

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

Absolutely. Yeah. Like it's motivation if they say, like, oh, you're looking like you're looking thin. Are you okay? And then it's motivation if they say like something on the opposite of that, like you're eating a lot. Like, way to go. That's awesome. And and it's like what I was taught was just avoid it all. Like if my sister ever asked, How do I look? Or do I look fat? You just say, like, I don't want to answer that. Because either way you say it, it would be fun.

SPEAKER_01: 30:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:01

Our brains would take it and turn it into Exactly. Whatever. Nothing helpful is what it would turn it into.

SPEAKER_00: 31:09

Um, so But let me just go back to that. Okay. Be because you would probably be able to answer it. Is it true that just saying like I'd rather not answer?

SPEAKER_01: 31:23

Is that like so like if I were to ask how do I look or blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think it's different for everyone, like what they would prefer. But for me personally, I know that if I asked you a question, how do I look? Is this enough food or is this too much? Whatever the question may be, and you were to say, um, I don't want to answer that, it would it wouldn't do any harm for me. But I think what it would do is I would be like, Okay, I can't answer her anymore. And I would be like, Who can I ask? I would I would become like manipulative and like sketchy around like who can I who can I ask then who isn't aware that maybe they should say this. Right. So like I would it it is it probably is a good answer. Um, but I think it just like I said, diff differs for everyone. And I know for me personally, like I would just go above and beyond to seek some sort of response.

SPEAKER_00: 32:20

Yeah, because you're definitely somebody who's more of like a people pleaser looking for reinforcement. Yeah. So I get that. Yeah. It's not you're not just gonna move past it and be done with with the question, or you're gonna be looking for some approval somewhere. So what would be like a better way to respond to someone? Just like thinking about other people who may be listening to this and you know, helping them because I I never knew at the time how to respond to my sister. Um, I would just be like, you know, you're not supposed to ask me those questions, or I really don't want to answer. So I don't know if there's like a better response that would satisfy that approval you're looking for, but not trigger anything. Do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 33:07

So I think, well, I think there's different answers for different phases of where you're at. True. Um but if I were to give, if I were to say to someone now, for me, like where I am in my recovery, like I'm pretty strong in my recovery. So I haven't asked a question like that in I don't know how long. But if I were to, I would say what would be helpful for me or for someone who's, I guess, in the state of maintaining their recovery is for that person to ask a question back and ask, why are you asking? Like, why do you want to know? Okay. Kind of put it back on them. And then because I know for me personally, that would make me think, that would make me check myself. Yeah. Like, am I simply just asking, does this shirt look good on me just generally? Or am I asking about the appearance? Right. Am I asking it for a different reason that's not really helpful for myself? Yep. Absolutely. So that would be what would I would suggest, just because it puts it back on the person. But I think that for someone who's not who's not strong in their recovery or maybe isn't even aware they have an eating disorder or anything like that. I think it's just just I would, if you're not comfortable saying something because you're afraid you don't want to make anything, I would just like nothing. I would and I know that that sounds kind of I don't mean that in like a malicious way, but just say nothing. Because then at the very least, they're gonna be mad at you for not responding and they don't really have anything to take with your thoughts. Yeah. Um so looking back and everything that you reflected on today, what would what would you go back and tell yourself in that moment? Or or not moment I guess, but years of college.

SPEAKER_00: 34:59

That is hard.

SPEAKER_02: 35:00

Tough one.

SPEAKER_00: 35:01

You know what? I really truly enjoyed my college experience. I don't think all of these like things I spoke about really negatively impacted me. I think they were always in like my subconscious mind. Um maybe just like care a little less about your appearance. It doesn't really matter how you look on the Instagram post. Um, you're gonna have just as much fun at the party if you knock down three slices of pizza before you go out. Right. Um, and it's okay to drink beer. Like, you're not gonna you're not gonna um I don't know. It that was just a silly thing, but um I think looking back it would be just to have more fun and enjoy it, be a part of it rather than engaging in in some of those behaviors.

SPEAKER_01: 35:58

Yeah, just putting your energy and attention elsewhere, other places, yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with that because I I mean it's not that I re I obviously don't regret having my disorder because it wasn't something I chose, but there are reasons why I'm thankful for it because it teaches you, it taught me a lot of stuff, so I'm sure even the stuff that you talked about, like can look back on it and like kind of realize like, oh, I that it teaches you it teaches you things.

SPEAKER_00: 36:26

Yeah, or yeah, it teaches your younger self definitely teaches your adult self, yeah, things. Um, and then like going forward, like now I have children and I know they're both boys, but just not talking negatively about yourself or bringing too much energy to that space and kind of keeping things positive and you know, fulfilling and not focusing so much on appearance is is huge. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

Um, so I know that you never had a diagnosis and you what you experienced was more kind of like the disorder, just disorder eating. But if you could tell someone who that either struggles with an eating disorder or just disordered eating, like what would be one thing that you would tell them?

SPEAKER_00: 37:19

Yeah, I would say mine was definitely like a combination of like compulsive exercising and I would say I had like food rules. Yeah. That that was kind of where I went. And I think it was, and I'm I'm not a type A person, so I don't know why this happened. Yeah, you're not type A, you're always late. I'm always late, my car's a mess. Like, I don't know. I I don't know where anything is. And it's really weird. I don't fit the criteria for for that. But um again, so again, I think it was environmental. So I think what it would be is to be a leader in an environment. And instead of following along, which is what looking back, I think I did. It would be to create an environment that you want to be involved in that's not having these disordered um behaviors and thoughts and and things. Um I think our society, it's pretty hard to completely avoid it. We are so hyper-focused on it. Um and it's funny because now I'm kind of going off a tangent, so you can cut this out, but it kind of speaks to like the moms in in that are listening. Um now that I'm a mom, it's like a mom culture where some of these pressures and societal norms and things are creeping back up. It's not eating disorder related, but it's like, are you breastfeeding? Are you sleep training? It's like all of these things that have high energy and um pressure. And it's like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't concern you what I'm doing, how I'm feeding my child, how my child's sleeping. Um, so I'm trying to carry that into my motherhood journey that just fitting a mold or fitting it an expectation um doesn't matter. I want to be fully present. I want to be fully loving on my boys, like making their childhood something to just look back on and be like, my mom was awesome. We loved our childhood rather than worrying about those societal pressures again.

SPEAKER_01: 39:47

No. So I'm glad you reframed that and said that because that's not something that I can ever really personally contribute to the podcast just because I don't have that experience. So thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00: 40:00

Yeah, because we can really get caught up in these expectations. And I I remember an episode where you were talking about it was like the expectation of going to college, getting married, having a family. And it's like, stop with the expectations. Right. Let people do what they want. Um, and you know what? The irony of it all is, which is where this will be posted, is that social media just puts a big kind of illusion out to people um that makes us feel like we've got this certain identity that we have to to fulfill. But it's great when you break out of it and do things that are maybe a little more taboo, like you're doing and and speaking about the real raw truth because just sharing like the glimmer and glitz of life isn't fair.

SPEAKER_01: 40:57

No. And it's not, I mean, not that there isn't glimmers and glits in life, but it's only a part, like a small part of it.

SPEAKER_00: 41:05

Exactly. Yeah, like I just I don't know. And and again, going back to mom culture, like now it's like when people post like, my child's talking at two months old, like, you know, and and you're like, no, they're not. Like, you know, so it's just again, it's shifted in my life to maybe have a different focus, but I keep reminding myself, like, just be present in the moment and enjoy what you have and and love what you're doing rather than think of any of these pressures or expectations.

SPEAKER_01: 41:42

Yep, I agree. And I love that. Thank you for sharing all that. Yeah. Um, and again, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 41:51

And yeah, I loved it. I appreciate hearing from you and seeing you. It's been so long since I've been back home. So I know it's a it's a nice way that we got to connect. And Benny still talks about your dog Keila that he named his little McDonald's toy after.

SPEAKER_01: 42:08

So my god, that melts my heart. Well, all right. Thank you so much, Cassie. Yeah, thanks, Kate. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Bite Bye Fight. I'm so grateful to be able to share this space with you, and I hope today's conversation brought you some insight, comfort, or maybe even a sense of community. Remember, no matter what you're feeling from, feeling isn't perfect, and every step you take does matter. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with someone who might need it, leave your video or subscribing to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at the video podcast, so you never miss the episode. If you want to connect more, you can find me on Instagram at FiBiPi Recovery. I'd like your story at